' the Socialism of the Provisionals Is a Bit Spurious '

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six counties of Northern was to form the IRSP and their own volition. They the streets but on factories going lo die, but the struggle see themselves as the revolu- and factory committees. One of the healthiest political status. ing the Irish working class developments we had in but leading the Irish people. Derry was factory shop-floor le, and certainly the most see themselves as an organisation which relies on the national question and sees as an addendum the need for socialism" How do you see socialism? How is socialism going to be achieved in Ireland?

By the expulsion of British troops and by the recognition of the Loyalist community that once capitalism has been taken out of society there is no longer any barrier to prevent the Protestant and Catholic working class coming together.

Ultimately, we recognise that sooner or later they are going to have to come together. It's a question of how we pursue that.

We believe that as long as the troops are here, as long as the Loyalists have a veto over what happens in the Six Counties, as long as they have control over the paramilitary organisations -the RUC and UDR - they are never going to give away what they feel they have.

They have nothing, of course. We recognise that, and they recognise it, too; but for some obscure reason they believe that being poor and linked to the United Kingdom is better than being poor and linked to a united Ireland.

What they don't appreciate is that the coming together of the two sections of the working class - the Protestants and Catholics -will ultimately provide the impetus for the transformation of society in the 32 Counties.

If the Brits pull out there will be a totally different sitvation in Ireland. In that totally different situation there will be intense debate, discussion, politicisation, and revolutionary organisations will put forward their programme, try and gain support to lead towards a socialist republic.

How are you going to expand the struggle into the 26 Counties?

We always recognised that the level of consciousness was lower in the 26 Counties than it was in the North, and we attribute that to ongoing military struggle against Brit imperialism in the North.

We recognise that as long as the Brits, RUC and UDR are kicking down doors at five and six in the morning, as long as they allow people to die on hunger strike and the rest of it, there is always going to be that higher level of activity and consciousness in the North.

That's obvious. Because you can lead a normal life in the Free State - as normal as anything in Britain until you got your riots recently!

Even in the North there are areas which are relatively quiet - Fermanagh/S.Tyrone, for example. It's basically a quiet area.

We naturally assumed that there was no opportunity for building a mass base in an area like Hermanagh/ S.Tyrone because they're all small farmers - all very devout Catholics, nationalists with a small 'n'or maybe with a capital 'N'. We didn't take them too seriousiy.

But then the H-Block crisis dévelops, and we are THE IRISH Republican Socialist Party was formed in November 1974 following a major split in the Official Republican movement (now Sinn Fein the Workers' Party).

Disagreement

At the centre of the split was a disagreement over the Officials' policy on the struggle against British imperialism in the Daily of British faced with B abby Sands standing for Fermanagh/ South Tyrone. Who would have believed that 30,000 people would vote for Bobby Sands?

They're not saying, 'we want socialism in Ireland"; it's us that's saying that the logical conclusion of getting the troops out of Ireland is the demand for Naturally they don't see it that way. But in some obscure way they are saying they want troops out, they want a new system, they want a united Ireland.

When you left the Officials, why didn't you join Provisional Sinn Fein?

The socialism the Provisionals talk about is a bit spurious in some ways. It's not the socialism of their rank and file.

There are many good and sound socialists with 1he Provisionals, but I don't believe they are a socialist organisation as such.

The proof of that is the way they try and lake over any of the broad frofit organisations. They see things in terms of dominating broad front organisations Ireland.

The Officials' leadership, influenced by the Irish Communist Party, increasingly swung to a position of seeking only the 'withdrawal of British troops to their barracks' and the 'democratisation' of Stormont and the Orange statelet.

Withdrawal

The opposition which troops raises anti-imperialist because they goal.

We see ourselves primarily as a socialist organisation which relies heavily on a solution to the national question. They see themselves as an organisation which relies on the national question and sees as an addendum the need for socialism.

And they see socialism in very narrow, restricted terms - they see it in terms of cooperatives and people cooperating logerner.

Fundamentally their view of Irish society as a whole is no different from the view that De Valera !the ex-Republican prime minister of the dournern state nau 1 une Ashan statol had in tha 1930s - an Ireland Gaelic and free.

They don't see it in terms of the working class gaining entrol of their own right LUILINI argued that such a formbe replaced by a call for immediate' withdrawal of British troops.

IAN SWINDALE and TIM HAIG, on a recent visit to the Six Counties, spoke in Derry to two IRSP members in an attempt to draw out the politics of the IRSP and their differences with the Provisionals.

They don't see things terms at all.

We recently spoke to Provisional Sinn Fein about H-Block, and they seemed very pessimistic. They seemed to think that there was little more that could be done to put pressure on Thatcher to concede the five demands. Do you share that view?

I think more can be done. I think a lot of the initiative has been taken away from the area committees of the LIAM ил ты National H-Block campaign.

We had great opportunities in Derry. We created a mass movement based not just on people coming onto Funeral of Patsy O 'Hara, committees attached to the H-Block Committee in Derry which were responsible on INLA hunger striker, in prominent part at this time. But the overall struggle is to get rid of the Brits.

Now prior to the H-Block hunger strike, the Brits' policy in Ireland was normalisation, criminalisation and Ulsterisation, and to some degree they were succeeding in that - certainly if by 'normalisation' you mean troops walking round the streets with guns.

Ignoring

But they were in fact waiking about, and a lot ot people were just ignoring them. They were becoming part of every day life. And the British had convinced a lot of people, internationally at least, that the prisoners were criminals and nothing British troops.

cal status - in the eyes of ments, now accept that they are nolitical prisoners.

The British government are the only ones who are saying they're not political prisoners. So to that extent the prisoners' struggle has succeeded.

And as a result of the intransigence of the British government in allowing the hunger strikers to die, 'Ulsterisation' has gone under. The RUC can't move now unless they have the backing of British troops.

The same thing happened with 'normalisation'. British troops can't come round now without dustbin lids and whistles going. It's almost back to 1972.

Lives

All of the middle ground increased immensely the There are grounds for

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ulation was misleading, discredited, and should