[How do you see unilateral nuclear disarmament being…]

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How do you see unilateral nuclear disarmament being achieved eventually?

I don't think it's going to be achieved without some political party in this country having it as its policy. That doesn't mean it's just a matter of persuading a political The most effective way of achieving it, and the most certain way, would, I think, be mass industrial action. But I don't know that we're into that ballgame yet in this country.

If a Labour government comes in at the next general election, what do you think are the chances of it carrying out unilateral nuclear disarmament?

It will depend quite a bit on the extent to which the pressure is kept up. CND National Council has decided to have mass action around Westminster as soon as the election is over, regardless of which party wins - with this in mind, that Labour may well have to be kept to its policies.

In that context, the independent didates?

how do you see unilateralist canI've stood three times as a quasiindependent. I think there are problems at a general election. You don't geta the publicity you hoped for, because there's much more about the main parties. You don't, in my experience, get a lot of people piling in to help in the campaign, because they all want to stay at home and work in their own constituencies.

You do of course get the advantage of the election áddress, and you get a relatively receptive audience at general election time, prepared to think about and discuss political issues.

But in this instance I think the situation is quite different because Labour - give or take a bit bi fudging over Polaris - is committed to a unilateralist policy. In the past. when it wasn't, perhaps there was a case for fielding candidates. But now vou have a unilateralist candidate - like for example Rebecca Johnson, standing against Heseltine - where there is a unilateralist Labour candidate in that constituency. I don't see the point of an independent standing and splitting the vote.

It's more difficult if you have i Labour candidate who is equivocal on unilateralism - or Healcy. for god's sake - but even so. I guess if we want a Lavour government returned, committed.to carry through this policy. we've Pat Arrowsmith helped organise the first Aldermaston march, and has been a member of CND since 1958. She is now on CND's National Council and the Labour CND executive, vice-chair of London Region CND, and also a member of Hornsey got to vote for Labour candidates even if they're not ones we particularly fancy. Independents just divert people.

It was very different before Labour had a unilateralist policy.

There's been a bit of argument in CND about how much priority to give to the labour movement orientation.

At the moment the election itself is a priority. I would agree, as a CND member, as distinct from being a Labour Party member, that CND can't specifically call for people to back any one party.

I'm a latecomer to the Labour Party - a sort of entrist on the CND issue. But we only achieved a unilateral disarmament policy in the Labour Party, we can only maintain it and see it carried out, with much wider pressure throughout the country. The women at Greenham Common going onto the runway yesterday is part of that. The action we're having at an arms factory in Enfield on May 12 is part of that. Marches and lobbies and public meetings are all part of that. There is no one single way of achieving our objective.

Wouldn't you say that other CND activists should draw the same conclusions about the Labour Party as you?

Yes - if you think that something is a correct line, then you should think it is correct for everybody else.

If everyone in CND were to join the Labour Party... it's an idle question, because they won't. But !I would certainly hope that everybody would decide to vote But I don't think CND can do a lot itself actually during the general election.

The peace canvass going on is a good limber-up for it, getting people to think about the issue, and at the general election local groups can of course hold meetings for all the candidates. But the work really has to be done before the general election, not during it. During it people will campaign for MA 18 10 helping Labour candidates.

There's been some discussion in CND and in the Labour Party about alternatives to nuclear weapons. What do you think?

I'm a pacifist. I became a pacifist because it seemed that the logic of the argument about nuciear weapons was not to engage in armed conflict at all.

But taking off the pacifist hat can see from the point of view of people who are not pacitists that there are alternatives. You can argue that as with a country like Sweden you can have a genuinely defensive conventional force, which is purely intended to intercept a potential aggressor.

This is arguably possible. How far it's necessary depends on whether you think there is any likelihood of this country being invaded - there's a possibility we might be invaded in even greater force than we are at present by the United States if we unilaterally gave up our nuclear weapons and told the Americans to get out - and what the people of the country feel. If a high proportion of the people have ingrained into SCRA get into the situation (as Tribune' has) of suggesting some kind of conscription. I can't hold with that, because it takes away. people's freedom.

You said that a serious move to unilateral nuclear disarmament could provoke a violent reaction from the United States. It could also bring a violent reaction from the British Army. How would you see that being dealt with? There's a lot of evidence that massive non-cooperation can be more effective than military action. Admittedly, guerilla warfare can be very effective, but if you don't believe in killing people then you're not'going to go along with the idea of guerilla warfare -many innocent people, as well as military people, get killed, as we can see in Ireland today.

A mass withdrawal of cooperalmost an entire population. would make a military dictatorship or military takeover or invasion not viable. There are examples of this from occupied countries in World War 2. For instance, the Nazi policy of subverting the education system in Norway under the Quisling government was completely blocked by non-violent resistance on the part of teachers.

I don't think any military force can succeed if there is massive non-cooperation by the population.

Massive non-cooperation. can be made less massive by military force, and then isolated and crushed..

But it's never really been attempted, apart from. India I suppose..

I think you might be right about the military moving in. Britain being a so-called democracy doesn't absolve us from this possibility. I'm aware that during the miners' strike [of 1974] there were plans for a military takeover. I was at a debate at Cambridge with Field Marshal Carver and he admitted this.

This is one of the reasons why it's so important for the nuclear disarmament movement to remain strong if Labour does get in. Apart from the question of whether Labour will carry out its policy, there is also the possibility of other forces - outside or internal - trying to stop nuclear disarmament.

Finally: what's your on May 24?

I said earlier on that I thought Manchester, July Z. For details contact • London N4: To join YCND, send £l to The People's March for /o. 83 banner was there as 3,0l joined the Sheftield Unwe coming Committee demo, stration against Margaret I hatcher's visit to the city the local capitalists' annuc binge, the Master Cutler's dinner. NUR, TGWU, NUP ASIMS, NALGO, Asian Youth Movement, and Bangladeshi community banners were also there.

industrial action was the way achieve our purposes in Ci though I'm not terribly sangu that this is on the cards at moment. But May 24 is concei of as industrial action. Ans think that if and when the To try to implement these new c defence regulations then we see the same sort of thing by Ic government employees.

Without necessarily blowin great trumpet, and saying t this is now a strike, it can hap! in another kind of way. And that sense May 24 is v important.

See 'Problems page 5.

YCND, 11 Goodwin 1/ Goodwin St.

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their own parties. And there will be many, many people in CND

YCND conference