[Where we sta Party and the policy The…]

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Where we sta Party and the policy The policies we fight for ion were very good things rented property. But at the same time, I don't see anything wrong with developing direct works departments that can build houses ¡for sale to working people as well.

But generally I find the present Party policy totally acceptable, and one that we've got to go out and fight for.

MT: Some of us were particularly interested in what you have said about the Common Market, because we've never thought that. withdrawal from the Common Market was a left wing policy.

Certainly, the EtC is a capitalist institution. But then Britain is capitalist, and it wouldn't be any less capitalist for being outside the EEC.

It seems to me that the socialist attitude should be to recognise that capitalism has moved to a higher level of international integration, and that our job is to move the socialist struggle to that higher level, not to try to turn the clock back.

EH: Years ago I was myself not opposed to us being in the Common Market. I wrote fairly extensively on that basis: that international capitalism was developing and integrating whether we liked it or not, and that therefore to combat international capitalism we needed to integrate the forces of the working class and trade union movement internationally.

I eventually came out against Britain going into the Common Market because the Market leaders had clearly laid it down that there would be no further changes in the Treaty of Rome.

I realised that the burdens, because of the Common Agricultural Policy and so on, on the shoulders of ordinary working people in Britain, would be so great that I could not, as a working class representative, agree to that happening. JB: Since the election Ken Livingstone has said that there is also a need to look at the Alternative Economy Strategy from the point of view that it doesn't go far enough and we should be talking about control of capital. Do you have any views on this?

EH: I'm an old fashioned socialist who believes passionately in the public ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange. I was only drawn to the idea of the Alternative Economic Strategy like this. Some of the right wing ideologues of the time, like Crosland had argued for competitive public ownership. Then when the Party began to develop a policy of competitive public ownership, they came out against it. It seemed to me that one couldn't go along with this opposition.

. I then adhered to it, but always with reservations. I just believe in the basic policy of public ownership.

It can be public ownership in many different ways, of course. I don't think we need to have just the old bureaucratic state-controlled public corporation. some sections have to be nationally owned in that way - but with democratic control. But there are all sorts of public ownership which we have never properly explored or developed.

You cannot build a democratio socialist society unless you take the means of production, distribube properly discussed within the movement, because there are many different concepts of workers' control.

You can have workers' control without actually owning the means of production. At a given moment the workers can be powerful enough to control that situation.

But what we really should be arguing for, in my opinion, is workers' self-management. G D H Cole developed all sorts of ideas on this, which were rather schematic, but his basic concept was right - the workers themselves electing their management.

MT: Going back to the question of Europe - would you have anything to say about the duties of the British labour movement in relation to the workers of Eastern Europe?

EH: I think that, unfortunately, too often in the labour movement in this, country we have found people who are prepared, quite rightly, to stand up for the rights of the workers of Chile, Argentina, South Africa, and other parts of the world, but have hidden their heads when it comes to the rights of working people in the Soviet Union, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and so on.

I don't think you can be a genuine international socialist unless you say quite clearly that not only do you fight against oppression in fascist states and capitalist states, but also in the bureaucratic societies in the Eastern bloc. We have to defend the right of workers to create free and independent trade unions, to create free and independent political organisations, to have the right to free expression, and so on.

I don't think we can have double standards on this. I've sometimes been very 1 unpopular, and I know I've lost vol tes, on this matter - but whether • you lose votes or not, you can't trim your WE WE sta VO wł stE mi div the COI CO!

fur th: an COI wh ba: ani inc was clearly a fudged thing, and I think that has to be recognised.

You clearly had those who ere opposed to any form of ages policy, either voluntary or atutory, those who wanted a luntary wages policy; and some ho perhaps would have liked a atutory wages policy.

And of course the trade union yvement itself was somewhat vided on this matter, although e TUC Congress has clearly me out against it, so has Party nference.

I have to say that it was a dge, there's no doubt about at. But of course now it's lost yway, and it's not going to me up again in some time -lat we've got now is wage ttening-down by the Tories, d we'll have to be fighting every ih of the way for decent wages.

It was a fudged issue, and there is no point in me pretending an in na nint in ma nrotandina herwise. I went along with it 36p including postage N8 8PL. very explicitly in favour of a united Ireland, but it seems to me that what's missing in the policy is a realistic idea of how that can be achieved.

EH: I agree. This is again a compromise policy, because the Party is divided between those who believe the British troops should be withdrawn - either quickly or on a phased basis - and those who argue that the reality is that you have the Six Counties, the million Protestants, the sectarian divisions, British troops went in originally to assist the minority, and so on...

My own personal point of view - one I've held within the Party for a long time, so I'm not saying anything different now publicly to what I've been saying inside - is that I've always believed in a united Ireland. We have to say that we In car that we will come nut of Join the JB: Some people have argued that your candidature is more a protest candidature than one with a chance of winning...

EH: No, it's a very serious candidature. Apart from anything else, I think that the policies I stand for are the policies not only of the Left but of wide sections of the Party.

in this last couple of weeks, I've had many letters from ordinary working people which have given me a tremendous personal feeling that I'm doing the right thing. I'm not just talking about Party members - I've had lots of letters from Party members, of course, but also from ordinary people who are Labour voters.

I think it's a real contest. Out there, there are millions of people in the labour movement who would sav: 'Yes he does renre•dar nana sent the things that I believe in'.

Party ORGANISER for Laborr Fight socialisti policiestl

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39 July 1983 Page 10 Tom Brown

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OUT NOW! OUT NOW!

from Socialist Organiser, 28, Middle Lane, London

Ireland, probably on a phased nd

20p Where we stand Socialist